Water / water drops in the DS-500 without rain ?!

[shark_attack]

Hey Stephen,

i ve little water drops in the DS-500... i am confuese?! Without rain. Only a little bit snow on the road. For few days i cleaned the DS-500 with water, but not with a hard water jet. Its normal or dangerous for my light?

http://www.abload.de/img/1wvkhd.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=1wvkhd.jpg)

Best regards

[Stephen]

Hey Bjoern! Well, I certainly wasn't expecting that one! This is the first instance of something like this that I've heard of so far.... lucky you! It would appear that either the combination of the cold temps and/or snow was somehow able to get by the water seals. Either that, or I just didn't do a good job of sealing it up in the first place. I've had several of these running in Canada and Alaska for a good while, so it's most likely my fault that it didn't get a good seal. Good news is that you should be able to disassemble the lens cover and re-seal everything with a heavier layer of grease, and you'll probably be alright. Here's what I recommend:

Remove the lens cover (see user's manual), and remove the lenses, and if there is any water directly on the lenses, blow it off as best you can (the less you can physically touch the inner surfaces of the lenses, the better). Set aside in a clean location to dry. RUN the light for 10 minutes or so on level 3 with the lens cover completely removed. You can do this inside with no air-flow. This should "bake" off any moisture that has gotten inside the housing.

There are three possible locations for water to get in: Around the perimeter of the lens cover, around the lens cover hold down screw, or around the lenses. From all the testing that I've done, It would be least likely for water to enter around the main seal (larger black o-ring) or around the screw. The most likely point of entry would be around the lenses, and specifically around the elliptical lens. If you look at the pictures closely, you'll see that the surface of the elliptical lens is actually ridged. It's very small, but you can see why this is a challenge to seal off. I've actually looked at this seal under a stereoscope and the silicon o-rings have proved themselves to be soft enough to conform to and fill these very small valleys.

Just to take it another level, when I assemble the lights, I apply and light layer of silicon grease to each of the small, clear lens o-rings before placing them into the grooves in the lens cover. In your case, it might be advantageous to also go around the edge of the elliptical lens itself, applying a very small "bead" of grease, just to make sure that all of the ridges stay sealed. You may also "paint" a slightly heavier layer of grease around the inside of the main lens cover "race" (see picture). Lastly, you should put a small layer of grease around the underside of the screw head that is used to hold down the lens cover. This screw needs to be moderately tight. Just tight enough to "bite" into the polycarbonate and form and nice "lock." This downward pressure on lens cover is simultaneously compressing the o-rings against the edges of the lenses, so if it's not all the way tight, you might not be getting the best seal.

Before you start putting things back together, just be certain that everything is absolutely clean. If you need to do any cleaning of the plastic parts, I'd recommend only using plastic-safe cleaner such as "Sprayway (http://www.spraywayinc.com/)." No paper towels, only soft cotton. There are several other similar foaming glass cleaners available at auto parts stores (at least here in the states).

A few other tips and things to note...
Use a small pair of pointed tweezers for positioning the clear o-rings into place.
Use a small hobby paint brush for applying grease to the main race around the lens cover.
It's completely normal to see water droplets in the area highlighted by the yellow lines around the outer perimeter of the lens cover, in the small gap between the lens cover and the housing. It's only in the areas denoted by the red arrows and "X" that you want to see stay dry.
Never use any kind of detergent soap while cleaning, to avoid breaking down the grease on the o-ring seal.
You can find the silicon that you need commonly available at plumbing supply stores or on-line. Just do a search for silicon o-ring lubricant.
Lastly, once you have everything sealed correctly, you should be able to plunk the light into a sink of water for 30 minutes (see picture) with absolutely no visible sign of water entry into the aforementioned areas after you pull it out and blow it off.
The size of allen wrench that you need for the lens cover hold down screw is 1/16".

Let me know if you need any help with the process.

202201204203205

[shark_attack]

Hey, Stephen!

Thank your for your detailed answer. The temperature outside was only max. -5 °C. In the sink i didnt use any kind of detergent soap while cleaning. I used only warm water and it was very short. So i am confuse. Currently, i am at the university and the light is at hometone. So, its a problem with the waterdrops inside the DS-500? I am back again at weekend. Or must call my family to turn on the light to evaporate through heat ??? At weekend i can take a look inside the DS-500... I ve always luck with such problems... :(

OR: Its better to send the light back to you ?! (because of warranty, expensive light, you are the specialist and currently i dont need it, because i use in winter month my city bike with the normal light. So i ve time for shipping.)

A penny for your thoughts.

Best regards!

[Stephen]

Well, I'd say if it only has very minor water vapor in it, then running it is certainly not going to damage anything. Just to be clear, though, the only way to "evaporate" the moisture out before re-sealing is to first remove the lens cover, so that the inside of the housing cavity can "breath." It should be fine to just let it sit the way it is, until you have time to take a look at it. If you'd feel more comfortable sending it back to me and letting me re-seal it, then I'd certainly be willing to do it for you. I could even do a permanent seal if you thought you would never need to swap the lens orientation. In theory, the seal on the light should still be good, even after you have removed the lens cover and re-installed it (at least in my sink tests). The worst case scenario is if you've been running the light in a vertical configuration for a long time, then you decide to remove the lens cover and swap the positions of the lenses for a horizontal application, the o-ring on the elliptical side will have formed a "slight" memory to the grooves on the lens. When you re-install the cover with the lenses in the new positions, you probably want to run the light for several minutes in a dry environment to let it heat up and help the o-rings "re-seat" with the different lens types. If you want to send it back to me, that would be fine. I would cover the cost of shipping it back to you. However, you might just take a look at it yourself first and see if you might be able to solve the issue with some of the above techniques. Then if it still didn't stay dry, definitely send it back.

Anybody else experiencing anything like this?

[shark_attack]

Well, i look at weekend to my DS-500. I open it and test it under water... After my tests i´ll decide the next step. But if i fail, i send the light back. Thx again for your great help. Hope the best and dont worry. You re a brilliant engineer and your light is awesome.

Cheers!;)

[Stephen]

Well, i look at weekend to my DS-500. I open it and test it under water... After my tests i´ll decide the next step. But if i fail, i send the light back. Thx again for your great help. Hope the best and dont worry. You re a brilliant engineer and your light is awesome.

Cheers!;)
Sounds like a plan....
Just make sure you have a few more steps between the "open it" and "test it under water" parts.;)

[shark_attack]

I called my parents at home and they said that the waterdrops didnt exist. So i am agreeably surprised. But i cant understand. Without heat (light out, room cold) and so fast??? Iam so confused... because there were lots of little waterdrops (yesterday) inside the black and white areas. It's beyond belief. Ahhhhhhhhhhh. But i must wait with the test for weekend:mad:

The next post comes at saturday...

[Stephen]

Well now that's one more possible scenario that I didn't think possible. Could it be that there was enough residual humidity inside the case, such that the cold temperature caused condensation to occur? If this is the case, then you might have a best case scenario. In other words, you might just be able to take the light to a nice cool/dry environment, remove the lens cover, run the light on HIGH for a few minutes to bake out any moisture, then re-install the lid. NOW, you should have a nice dry, sealed light. I'd try this first. In fact, now that we've had this discussion, I think it would be a good idea for me to add this to my build protocol, that is, do a short burn-in on the light, then immediately install the lens cover.

[shark_attack]

Ok. Sounds good. :)THX for your fantastic support!

Gn8 (00.05 AM in Germany^^)

[Stephen]

Bjoern, check out the latest BLOG POST (http://www.designshinelighting.com/entry.php?51-Build-3-Update-Dec-5-Batch-2-Assembly-Progress-cont...). It looks like I was able to reproduce (at least partially) the situation that you ran into with the condensation. Basically, it's boiling down to the fact that there needs to be more grease around the edge of the elliptical lens to help fill in the small ridges. Apparently I'm getting slightly more compression of the o-ring on some lights vs. others just due to tolerances in the in the parts, which is why the heavier layer of grease is necessary. I'm doing some more testing now and should be able to give you some explicit instructions on how to apply the proper amount of grease in a few days. The first thing to do, would be just to remove the lens cover and use a hair dryer to evaporate any moisture that may still be lingering. Then power on the light to level 3 and let it run for at least 30 minutes. More later...

[shark_attack]

Hey Stephen,

thank you so much for your prompt assistance! At weekend i am back at home and i will check my DS-500 (after your new instructions)

Cheers, Björn!

http://www.abload.de/img/img_7257a1omu.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=img_7257a1omu.jpg)

PS: Currently, we ve 15 cm snow:D

[Stephen]

Here you go Bjoern, this should be slightly helpful as you re-seal the light. (Note that this does not apply to build #1 or build #2 lights).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWRSL5gud2Y&feature=youtu.be

[Stephen]

For anyone with build 1 or 2 lights, this does not apply.

Based on my testing here with the new Build 3 design, it's very likely that you've also got some condensation inside the electronics cavity as well. So go ahead and remove the four screws for the lid and inspect the inside of the case. If you see any water, then blow out any large drops and use a hairdryer to speed up the drying/evaporation process for the inside of the cavity. After you're convinced that the inside is nice and dry, go ahead and connect the battery and turn it on level 3 for 5 minutes or so, then turn it off.

Using a similar technique to what you saw in the video with the hobby brush and silicon grease, paint a liberal amount around the top of the o-ring that seals the lid to the case. Next, carefully tuck the wires from the switch down into the case as you set the lid back in position (you just don't want to pinch the switch wires in the process). After applying a small amount of medium (non-permanent) threadlock to the screws, go ahead and re-install the screws, being careful not to over tighten. I suspect that the anodization process created enough friction in the treaded holes that you can probably get away without the threadlock. Just come back after several rides and make sure the screws are staying tight.

OK, NOW you're ready to try the re-sealing process from the video.

I'd like you to also remove the black o-ring around the circumference of the face of the light and apply grease on it like you saw in the video.

Although it's a PAIN that you're having to even having to mess with this, hopefully it will be somewhat reassuring to see how easily serviced and/or rebuildable the light is. The bottom line is that I was pretty much just being overly sparing with the application of the grease and really did not consider the cold/snow scenario. Hopefully this will get you going again! And if not, of course you know you can always return it to me for the rework.
Thanks!

[shark_attack]

Hi Stephen,

i am back again... weekend and i stay at home;-) Tomorow, I will test it. And after i decide... Currently, my DS-500 was on for 1 hour with level 4. Hope, all moisture is gone.:D

Cheers and a nice evening!

[Stephen]

Hi Stephen,

i am back again... weekend and i stay at home;-) Tomorow, I will test it. And after i decide... Currently, my DS-500 was on for 1 hour with level 4. Hope, all moisture is gone.:D

Cheers and a nice evening!

Did you just run it for an hour without first removing the lens cover? If you're NOT seeing any condensation at room temperature, then this is a good sign, but it's possible that there still may be enough moisture inside the housing to condensate during cold temperatures outside.

If you ARE seeing condensation at room temperature, then it's very likely that you also have some larger droplets of condensation inside the electronics cavity. In this case, you should go through the entire process that I outlined in Post #13.

If you did NOT see condensation at room temperature, but you DO see condensation again when running at cold temperatures, then you should ONLY remove the lens cover and lenses, set everything aside and run the light indoors for an hour. Now you should add the silicon grease around the edge of the lenses according to the video and re-install the lens cover and re-test in the cold temperatures.

Look forward to hearing how it goes!

[shark_attack]

Ok Stephen,

thanks for help... THANKS THANKS THANKS !!! Your support is so goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooood. Better than a german trader. Hats off! So, after the 1 hour burning test, i drive in the city with level 5 for 45 min (yes level 5 because of the temp. - we ve -10 °C). After my ride i saw little water drops outside the rings, and comparatively few inside the ring. Look at my pictures. But it was only 20 % as opposed to the first water problem. So i think for -10 °C its ok. Now, i will turn on the light for more hours at night and test the light outside tomorow... After it i observe the light again and decide what is the next step...

http://www.abload.de/img/2o0ktl.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=2o0ktl.jpg)

http://www.abload.de/img/118pj9x.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=118pj9x.jpg)

Good night! Cheers

[Stephen]

Thanks for the pics Bjoern, very helpful.
Based on what you're telling me and what I'm seeing in the pictures, it does look like you'll need to take the light apart and perform the re-sealing procedure.
I would do it in this order:

1. Remove the lens cover. Even after you remove the center screw, it will feel as if it's "stuck." Don't try to pull it straight off, or it will end up popping off violently. Try to first pull up on one of the short sides first to get it to slowly pop off of the main o-ring.

2. Remove the lenses and set aside in clean location (make a note of the orientation of the elliptical lens). Dry if necessary with a hair dryer.

3. Remove the main (black) o-ring, apply grease, and re-install (see video), being careful not to touch the LEDs.

4. Re-install the lenses, being careful to maintain correct alignment of the elliptical lens

5. Apply the small bead of grease around the edge on the front face of the lenses (as in the video).

6. Set the lens cover back down over the lenses, and pull it back onto the main o-ring by tightening the main hold-down screw.

7. Remove the four (4) lid hold down screws and open the case. Run the light on level 3 with the lid off for at least 30 min, and/or blow out with hair-dryer if necessary.

8. Liberally re-grease the lid o-ring and re-install the lid, taking care not to pinch the switch wires and not over-tighten the lid screws (with medium thread lock if available).

That should be all you need to do.
Thanks!

[shark_attack]

Morning Stephen, i watched your video... but my new problem is the grease. Because of the o rings i need special grease. So i must look... mh:eek:

[Stephen]

Almost bedtime for me!
Check at your local plumbing supply or hardware stores. I found mine at Lowes (home hardware store) in the plumbing section for about $3.

[shark_attack]

Good Morning (Germany 11.00 AM),

i had a good grease from my dad, special grease which dont pit rubber or plastic...


http://www.abload.de/img/img_7636s0plp.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=img_7636s0plp.jpg)
Open - First part Off
http://www.abload.de/img/img_7638nrq9x.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=img_7638nrq9x.jpg)
Open - First part Off
http://www.abload.de/img/img_7635uapfk.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=img_7635uapfk.jpg)
Open - First part on
http://www.abload.de/img/img_7641ecrm3.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=img_7641ecrm3.jpg)
Heating - to air

LAST WORDS: Hope it helps!?

Cheers!

[shark_attack]

Next Steps...

http://www.abload.de/img/img_7644ohplq.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=img_7644ohplq.jpg)
Clean old grease
http://www.abload.de/img/img_7645hkrjo.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=img_7645hkrjo.jpg)
Clean rubber and lens
http://www.abload.de/img/img_7647g9pvo.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=img_7647g9pvo.jpg)
Open with new grease
http://www.abload.de/img/img_7649jdo9f.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=img_7649jdo9f.jpg)
Close with new grease

[shark_attack]

Last pictures...

http://www.abload.de/img/img_76505zpq1.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=img_76505zpq1.jpg)
Grease - you see it, but it doesn't bother me
http://www.abload.de/img/img_7651c7ow1.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=img_7651c7ow1.jpg)
Grease (but only from side) - without negative affectation

Cheers and best greetings from wintry Germany!:D

[shark_attack]

I test my DS-500 after lunch... must go to town^^

http://www.abload.de/img/img_7659suupg.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=img_7659suupg.jpg)

[shark_attack]

Well done, my work functioned. I did a heck of a job^^ After 1,5 hours outside (-8°C) no water or waterdrops inside my DS-500. @ Stephen: Thank you again !!! You re so great;)

-----> DS-500 RULEZ <-----

Have a nice evening, your satisfied customer!

[Stephen]

Well done, my work functioned. I did a heck of a job^^ After 1,5 hours outside (-8°C) no water or waterdrops inside my DS-500. @ Stephen: Thank you again !!! You re so great;)

-----> DS-500 RULEZ <-----

Have a nice evening, your satisfied customer!

Good job Bjoern! You're definitely sealed up NOW! As long as you did get some extra grease around the edge of that elliptical lens, then I suspect you should never have to take it apart again. I have noticed that the black oxide on some of the screws that I use to hold the lid down is not as uniform as I would have liked, and so you might take a Q-tip and just put a fine film of grease around the head of the screws to prevent any rust down the road. Keep us updated with any new developments. Thanks for sharing your experience!

[shark_attack]

Hey Stephen,

thanks for your tip. I had a little bit rust on the mounting system, but its from cateye. So, its not your fault^^

Wish you a happy Christmastime!

[Stephen]

Hey Stephen,

thanks for your tip. I had a little bit rust on the mounting system, but its from cateye. So, its not your fault^^

Wish you a happy Christmastime!

Yes, it's hard to avoid a little surface rust on those black oxide screws. Just a very small amount of penetrating oil (WD-40, etc.) will help.

[shark_attack]

Yes, it's hard to avoid a little surface rust on those black oxide screws. Just a very small amount of penetrating oil (WD-40, etc.) will help.

Yes, you re right... WD-40 is the best multifunctional oil for the bikes in winter months and all other parts! And its cheap^^

Cheers!

[Stephen]

Hey Bjoern,
Just wanted to followup with one more question. Just to be sure, you did open the metal lid (four screws) and apply some grease around the o-ring under the lid, right? It's entirely possible that you never had any leakage around the lenses, but that you just had a very small amount get past the lid o-ring and cause the condensation, especially if you were running it under a stream of water for cleaning. In any case, once you add a heavier layer of grease on the lid o-ring, then you should really and truly be water tight. Originally, I simply did not apply enough grease on that lid o-ring to take care of any small surface imperfections on the under side of the lid. So if you hadn't already, be sure and hit that interface with some grease when you get a chance. (Careful not to over-tighten those small screws when re-installing or pinch the switch wires).
Thanks!

[shark_attack]

Hey Stephen,

i ve pictures for you, where i use grease for DS-500 parts...

Grease on the cover, over, under and around the black O-ring and complete lens with the two small white O-rings (the big lens, not the two small lenses) inside...

Please look at my pictures:

http://www.abload.de/img/1aykuav.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=1aykuav.jpg)

http://www.abload.de/img/1b9ku84.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=1b9ku84.jpg)

Hope thats right?!

[Stephen]

Yes! You did good. I think you definitely got the front sealed up without a doubt. Now all you need to do to be 100% sure is go ahead and take care of the lid as well. Note that you'll hear/feel a "pop" when you first remove each screw. This is the threadlock compound breaking loose and is completely normal.

In the sequence of pics, you'll see the screws removed and lid slightly separated.
212

The lid separated and showing the original amount of grease (too thin),
213

and Finally, the new layer of grease on top of the black o-ring.
214

When you re-install the lid, just be sure that the switch wires are coiled up and out of the way so that they don't get pinched. Also, make very certain that you do not cross-thread or over-tighten the screws when you re-install the lid. If you can, it'd be good to apply just a small amount of REMOVABLE thread lock to the threads. Just be SUPER careful not to get any on the clear polycarbonate lens cover, since it will actually etch the plastic. Let me know if you have questions.
Thanks!

[shark_attack]

-----> Thanks for your great description <-----

I will open my DS-500 later... But thank you for your help. If i have no probs with water i will use the new grease. Currently all dry.

I ve take new photos @ night with DS-500 (in snow). Last Shooting for my DS-500. Hope you enjoy...

Cheers!:rolleyes:



PS: Exist red XML-LEDs? More lumens^^ Or is the red XPE the brightest LED?

[Stephen]

-----> Thanks for your great description <-----

I will open my DS-500 later... But thank you for your help. If i have no probs with water i will use the new grease. Currently all dry.

I ve take new photos @ night with DS-500 (in snow). Last Shooting for my DS-500. Hope you enjoy...

Cheers!:rolleyes:



PS: Exist red XML-LEDs? More lumens^^ Or is the red XPE the brightest LED?

I'm using the highest output BIN of the red XPEs that CREE makes. If there is anything more efficient at these wavelengths, then I am unaware of it. The XPEs also work exceptionally well with the small optics, whereas the XMLs do not. By the way, the XML2s were just announced today, so get ready for yet another wave of headlight lumen wars.

[shark_attack]

Hey Stephen,

nice description:
lumen wars

Yes, love light walls (so i am pleased with my 2 MJ 880). Better than Lupine Wilma or Betty... and i think 900 Euro for a Betty is not ok. But its made in GERMANY^^ Currently i am a MAGICSHINE fanboy;)

[shark_attack]

Hi Stephen,

thanks again for your great and straight answers. I am so happy with my new tail light. Now, i drove 120 KM with my bike in snow and no problem with the seals. Thank you so much... Lock at my pictures - after my test runs your tail light is inured^^ German winter proved your technical skill ----> passed ;-)

http://www.abload.de/img/1wrc7z.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=1wrc7z.jpg)

http://www.abload.de/img/2tlcj5.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=2tlcj5.jpg)

http://www.abload.de/img/3l4dnq.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=3l4dnq.jpg)

Merry Christmas!

[Stephen]

Hey Bjoern,
Merry Christmas to you as well! I'm just amazed that you can ride those kind of miles in SNOW! Hat's off to you my friend!
Glad to hear that the DS-500 is passing the test and staying tight and dry! Yet again, very nice pics!

[shark_attack]

120 KM in three stages, because you are sooooooooo slow in the white powder^^

Offtopic: If you like it, i have a vid of one stage:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m90CtX_WMu4

Enjoy:D

[markbitter]

Seems good and nice to check.Thanks for sharing.